Interview with Audrey Tang, Glen Weyl and Hal Seki
What do you think the future of humanity will look like? A super powerful AI doing all our work for us while we kick back and relax? Robots taking over the world and forcing us to work even more? Or will things be pretty much the same, but in VR?
Despite science fiction coming up with a few good guesses here and there, we're surprisingly bad at predicting the future, and for one good reason: The world is too complex, too vast, and too unpredictable for us to fully understand, let alone anticipate.
But what if we took this complexity and set it at the foundation of our vision for the future? Rather than picturing a single path for all humanity, we could embrace society's rich diversity and acknowledge that we're traveling simultaneously down many different paths. Then our focus would be on linking those paths together, channeling technology and innovation to co-create a future that benefits everyone.
This is the approach championed by Audrey Tang, the first Digital Minister of Taiwan, and Glen Weyl, economist and lead researcher at Microsoft. Both are pioneers of the Plurality movement, represented by the symbol ⿻, and have recently published a book to present their vision to the world. To further disseminate their ideas, their book, PLURALITY, is being translated into Japanese by Cybozu-shiki Books.
Audrey and Glen were joined by Hal Seki, civic hacker and founder of Code for Japan, in a conversation moderated by Cybozu's own Hirokazu Nishio, about how Plurality and civic tech may come to shape the future of how society is organized.
Old principles adapted for the digital age
Hiro
Let's begin with the basics. What is Plurality?
Audrey
Let me take a stab at this question from the perspective of East Asian cultures like Taiwan and Japan. One thing we see in these cultures is when a large group of people have a different opinion from me, my default reaction is to keep my distance. I'm not going to fight. I will wait for the fire to run its course, then go about my business.
The consequence of this type of thinking is rigid hierarchies, because nobody wants to challenge people with different opinions.
Plurality is a way of organizing groups of people that encourages us to use our differences as fuel. When someone disagrees with you, build a bridge. Don't let those disagreements explode into hate, but use them as energy toward innovation and change.
Audrey Tang began to learn programming by herself at age 8. She dropped out of junior high school, and at age 15 was working as a programmer. At 19, she founded a startup in Silicon Valley. She later served as a consultant for Apple, before ultimately joining the Taiwanese government during the Tsai Ing-wen administration. In 2016, she became Taiwan's first Digital Minister.
Glen
Plurality is not a science fiction story. We are not trying to burn down the current social structure and build something from scratch. We went around the world and found examples where the principles underlying Plurality were applied effectively. In that sense, the book we released about Plurality is a work of documentation, presenting those examples to the world.
『Plurality: The Future of Collaborative Technology and Democracy』Published on May 20, 2024
Hal
It's especially important to understand that there is no single way of implementing Plurality. In the Japanese context, Plurality will look differently than in the American or Taiwanese contexts. Each community has the opportunity to define its vision for the future, and use Plurality as the means of effecting that vision.
Hiro
Why do you think a movement like Plurality is important today?
Glen
When you look at the effects of technology on society, it's tragic how people are being pushed away from each other and herded into ideological camps. You see individuals denying their own family members just because of differences in political views.
The reason this happens is not because of the way our society is currently organized, but because of the way it's conceptualized. The human mind is limited, and cannot conceive of complexity on a global scale. So instead, one understandable reaction to society's complexity is to band together with the people who share our world view, deny everyone else, and set comfortable but artificial boundaries around our own reality.
Plurality offers a different path. We encourage people to embrace complexity in order to feel comfortable with the world they actually live in. The underlying principles are not new. Plurality is a modern restatement of the centuries-old ideas we find at the core of Daoism and Zen Buddhism, as well as much of Western philosophy.
Glen Weyl is an economist and a Research Lead at Microsoft. He is the founder of RadicalxChange and the Plural Technology Collaboratory & Plurality Institute. Weyl was named one of WIRED's "25 People Shaping the Next 25 Years." The primary focus of his research is on next-generation political economy.
Audrey
Plurality is also an alternative to some of the other prevailing visions about our future. We don't believe in the vision that Artificial General Intelligence will do all our jobs for us while we sit back and live off of Universal Basic Income. We also don't think the internet will decentralize every society on Earth and create a maximalist libertarian utopia.
Both of these narratives have a sense of inevitability, as if they were logical conclusions to how society must evolve. Plurality is more conservative, in the sense that it is about conserving ideas and ways of life that are already working.
The modern world is too complex for any single individual to predict the future. So rather than try, we conceptualized a framework in which technology can bring together multiple ways of thinking and diverse ways of life.
Demonstrating change
Hiro
How did the Plurality movement get started?
Audrey
For me, it began in 2012 with the g0v (gov-zero) community in Taiwan. The country was experiencing a broad wave of discontent toward the government, but rather than use social media and technology as a destructive force, we used them as a co-creational force. Civil society came together and began implementing ideas and tools to compensate for the government's shortcomings.
Gradually, these mechanisms of co-creation became institutionalized. In 2018, Taiwan held its first Presidential Hackathon, as a safe space for government officials and civil society to interact and spearhead new digital initiatives.
The trust established between government and citizens then truly paid dividends during the coronavirus pandemic. Everyone participated in Taiwan's collective response. All sorts of new initiatives were rapidly deployed, with perhaps the most famous being the Face Mask Map. Through the Plurality movement, I hope to introduce the principles that worked so well in Taiwan to the rest of the world.
Hiro
How has the Plurality movement been faring so far outside of Taiwan?
Glen
Since Plurality is expressed differently in each cultural context, the challenges regarding its dissemination are also different. In Japan, I think the capacity for Plurality is there, but motivation is generally lacking. In the US, I think the motivation is there, but we lack the capacity. In Taiwan, there was both capacity and motivation, so the movement took off.
Hal
I agree. In Japan, for me the story began in 2011, with the Great East Japan Earthquake. There was a tremendous need for tools and solutions to help in the relief effort. I wanted to put my engineering skills to use for the public good.
Sinsai.info, a website that compiles disaster information related to the Great East Japan Earthquake (Tohoku Region Pacific Coast Earthquake). The site offers 19 categories such as "Affected Areas," "Transportation," and "Safety Confirmation & Status." The number of reports published is displayed on the map as numbers for each area.
Hal
However, I don't think there was the same level of motivation and enthusiasm in Japan as there was in Taiwan. I quickly realized that it was not enough for a few engineers to get involved in civic tech. That's why now my organization, Code for Japan, is trying to initiate a broader movement that can actually change people's mindset with regard to technology.
Hal Seki is the founder of Code for Japan and operates with the motto of "Making communities more livable through technology." He promotes civic tech in Japan and leads Georepublic Japan, a company specializing in open-source GIS system development, as CEO. Seki is also the President of HackCamp, which supports open innovation in businesses. He serves as the Chief Innovation Officer (part-time) for Kobe City and as a Digital Transformation Fellow for the Tokyo Metropolitan Government.
Hiro
In terms of motivation, do you mean the will to change society?
Hal
In Japan, there is a culture in which resisting the existing system or acting beyond the hierarchy or organization is a source of great stress. Activists are often shunned.
Also, unlike in Taiwan, I think many Japanese are so accustomed to democracy, for better or worse, that they have little sense of urgency. Relatively speaking, Japanese people seem to be less motivated to break down the barriers between the private and public sectors and take proactive action, even when they are dissatisfied with the government.
Helping the helped become the helper
Hiro
For everyone to get involved in Plurality, you will have to persuade people who are apprehensive of technology. What arguments will you use to bring them on board?
Audrey
We have to demonstrate true benefits. The people who are furthest removed from new technology are also typically the ones who have the most to gain. Satellite technology, advanced solar systems, vertical 5G technology, and so on, may see slower uptake in the city, and so on may see, which is dense enough to already warrant a robust infrastructure. However, they make a lot of sense in the countryside. Telemedicine and telesurgery might save someone a few minutes downtown, but for elderly patients in the countryside, they can spell the difference between life and death.
Glen
I agree, and in addition to mending hearts, we also need to move hearts. Many rural areas no longer have the population density to maintain their traditions or hobbies.
Young people are already familiar with online interest groups, but if we want to preserve our cultural identity, we need to involve older people as well.Technology can offer people an opportunity to transcend physical boundaries and come together to form new, dynamic communities.
Hal
Whatever arguments we make, it's important that we aren't dictating the way in which people come into the digital world.
If a person finds purpose in their way of life, it is not our role to disrupt them. For example, take the man at the intersection directing traffic. He may find purpose in seeing the smiling faces of the children who he's helping to cross the road. Automating his job would not benefit the community.
We should focus instead on automating things that don't actually increase social participation or care within the community—things like making people go all the way to City Hall to fill out a document.
Audrey
That's very important, because losing your sense of purpose is one of the leading causes of mental decline among the elderly. With Plurality, we want to contribute to the good of society and help people, but we can't end there.
We need to create opportunities like volunteering, so people can give back to their communities. In other words, we need to help the helped become the helpers.
Plurality as a business tool
Hiro
So far we have talked a lot about government and civil society, but now I would like to turn to the private sector. What relationship do you see between companies and the Plurality movement?
Hal
In Japan, I think there is already a strong understanding among businesses that they have a responsibility to contribute to the public good. Unlike in the US and other countries, they don't set market domination as their primary goal. Business owners are aware of their responsibility to invest in sustainable initiatives that bring value to society. Plurality offers them a roadmap to doing so.
Audrey
We need to make sure we are not conceptualizing public and private as two separate categories. Social entrepreneurship tends to fail when we decide that public goods belong to the public sector, and private goods to the private sector. Communication issues arise between the two.
Plurality seeks to integrate public and private. While I don't think all private companies necessarily begin with a strong social purpose, with Plurality, they can discover it along the way.
Glen
A good example of this intersection would be a platform like GitHub, which isn't just open source for everyone and everything. They make money by selling private environments to enterprises for business use.
There are plenty of ways in which businesses can generate a profit by selling products that align with the principles of Plurality. Anything from taking a percentage off of the services they offer, to more complex mechanisms like quadratic funding. Finding economically viable ways to spread Plurality is not only possible, but actually critical to lending the movement legitimacy.
Audrey
Plurality can also boost productivity. In fact, one of the reasons we provide so many government initiatives as examples is because no matter how bureaucratic your organization is, it is probably still less bureaucratic than the government. So if the government can use these principles to become more productive, then so can the private sector.
Hiro
So it sounds like corporations could actually benefit in multiple ways from engaging with the Plurality movement.
Glen
Absolutely. If, by introducing Plurality, we can help businesses collaborate better, respond to social change better, and benefit from civic movements to realize better outcomes, then it becomes easier for us to make the case for why businesses should stay connected to civic and democratic spaces.
I'm an economist by training, and in many ways the Plurality book is a business book. We need to promote it to corporations as such.
A movement for everyone
Hiro
What do you see as the next major steps for the Plurality movement?
Glen
First, we would like to introduce the principles of Plurality to as many people as possible. The book is structured in a flexible, modular way, so it can be read differently by different people depending on their interests and needs. As I mentioned, it can be a business book, but also a policy book, a technical treatise, and much more.
Hal
In Japan, we need to come up with new mechanisms for financing Plurality and civic tech initiatives. I used to manage startups. In that world, as long as you have a problem-solution fit, it is easy to raise capital and create a product. However, In civic tech, there is no equivalent mechanism. A lot of the people I work with are volunteers, who often have the drive to start projects, but lack the resources to keep them going.
My future plan is to create an institution—a foundation with 10 billion yen worth of funds that can be dispensed to support civic tech projects contributing to the public good for a span of up to ten years. We are hoping to raise the money through investments and collaboration with both the private and public sectors.
Hiro
Will it be engineers leading this movement? What role do you see for everyone else?
Audrey
The engineers were never the ones at the forefront of the Plurality and civic tech movements. During Taiwan's first Presidential Hackathon, maybe 30% of participants were engineers. That number has been going down every year.
The main reason we are able to involve diverse people is because of the democratization of technology and the rise of no-code tools, like Kintone. Nowadays you don't need to understand programming languages in order to work on civic tech innovation. All you need is imagination.
The challenge for those who do have engineering skills will be to listen broadly and incorporate as many people as possible into the movement. For civic tech to be successful, the people impacted have to be actively involved in the co-creation process.
Glen
At the end of the day, Plurality is about culture. Technology is one component, but so are art exhibits like TeamLab Borderless, or museums like Mirai-kan, which offer their unique take on the principles underlying Plurality.
This cultural layer of the movement will be unique to each community, which is why it's so important to expand beyond the tech and engineering world and branch out throughout society.
Hal
And the way to reach those new sections of society is by demonstrating the benefits of our movement. To reach young people, we can use civic tech to revolutionize the education system. For older people, we can implement rural initiatives to revitalize depopulating communities.
I also think it's important for us to spread the philosophy of civic tech to businesses, which will require us translating that philosophy into activities they can easily understand. We can suggest specific areas in which businesses can make an impact, such as declining birth rates and climate change.
Glen
Yes, organizations don't have to get involved with the entirety of the movement. They can participate with their own missions. For example, at Microsoft, AI transformation is a high-priority mission. So are sustainability, DEI, privacy, cybersecurity, and resilience. Plurality is the conceptual approach, but then how do we take this playbook and apply it to the individual organization? This is a topic we still have to develop, and companies like Cybozu are very well positioned to lead that development.
Around the world, there are so many exciting initiatives happening right now to expand the Plurality movement beyond the civic tech community. We are constantly creating new avenues to get involved, whether it's through the book, the website, Discord servers, or organizations like Code for Japan. So if reading this article has gotten you interested in Plurality, we would love for you to join us.
Article by Alex Steullet. Edited by Maki Jimbo. Photographs by Tsukasa Ogi.